Transcript of P is for the Art of Practicing Respectful Communications
Cathy: Welcome to Parity, a podcast for everyone ready for a workplace of true gender parity with equal numbers of women and men at all levels of organizations including the coveted top positions. Women have had the right to vote for 100 years, but most experts believe that we will not achieve workplace parity for another 135 years! 135 years is a long time, friends, to wait for equality. The goal of this podcast is to accelerate this change by being a coach, mentor, and trusted friend for all of you who are ready now.
I’m Cathy Nestrick. Waiting for 135 years until we achieve workplace parity is not ok with me, and that is why I was motivated to start this Podcast with my good friend Deborah.
Deborah: I am your co-host Deborah Pollack-Milgate. And I’m still trying to get through one episode without cringing at your 135 year timeline. No such luck! But I am hopeful that we can reduce this time line substantially. That’s why I’m committed to doing everything I can to clear the way for women to succeed in their chosen career paths. NOW!
Cathy: Totally agree, but circumstances have been working against us, starting with the pandemic and now we are seeing some states aggressively curtailing women’s rights. But we are not deterred listeners! I think I hear passion in your voice too Deborah!
Deborah: You do - because there is a lot we have to deal with right now! And I am passionate about our topic today, because I think the role of communications in creating - or undermining – satisfaction in the workplace is one that is overlooked. Literally, a person can have a good day or a bad day at work and it can all turn on what someone said. Yet there is very little training across the organization regarding how we can all be effective empathetic communicators.
Cathy: I so agree - and communications can make or break careers so this topic is critically important. That’s why, listeners, we are devoting this episode to discussing communications practices within organizations. Specifically, we are going to talk about how communicating openly and frequently can benefit the culture of your organization, and then we will do a deep dive into what makes for a successful communication, and just as importantly, what makes for an unsuccessful communication. And we will have some stories when things didn’t go as planned.
When we say successful, we mean a communication that is not only clear in its message, but also one that is delivered respectfully and amiably, with the best chance of being received in the same way.
Deborah: And when I think about this topic, I’m almost tempted to add a letter to our Parity Prescription, but I can’t think of where we could add a letter to SCRIPT and still have a real word, so I will have to hold off for now.
Cathy: I’m intrigued by your thought! As a reminder listeners, SCRIPT stands for:
S: Stop Trying to Change Women
C: Create Diverse Teams
R: Recognize Unconscious Bias
I: Intentionally Include
P: Partner With Men to Be Allies
T: Talk About The Issues
We believe that a combination of each of these factors will help women advance and compete with men on a more level playing field.
So Deborah, if you had your way, what letter would you add to the Parity Prescription?
Deborah: It would be another P for “practice the art of respectful communications.”
Cathy: Well, it could be SCRIPPPPPPT!
Deborah: And by the way, did you know I was actually a communications major?
Cathy: I did not know that. I don’t think that communications majors get the credit they deserve - it’s something that we all do day in and day out, and it’s one of those skills that we aren’t just born knowing how to do it, and we should always be continuously improving. Just a few years ago, I actually hired a communications professor to help me with my presentation skills.
But back to you Deborah, you’re an IP lawyer - listeners, that means that she handles a lot of litigation and disputes dealing with patents and sciency stuff. So what’s up with the communications major??
Deborah: I don’t talk about it that much because I am now squarely in the STEM space - and I think that a lot of people assume that communications skills are intuitive and not something that needs to be studied. In fact, I am going to go out on a limb and say that many many lawyers and business professionals think that they are really good at communicating respectfully and effectively. And for lawyers in particular, our job is about making the argument, in writing or orally, or communicating with a client. And we think we do it well.
Cathy: Yes, that’s an interesting point, and certainly getting through law school requires persuasive writing, but I am not sure that my experience in the workplace has been that lawyers are better at communicating with frequency and respect. I would say that other professionals think we talk and write more than they do, but that doesn’t mean we’re better at it.
Deborah: I think we learn a lot about how to be precise in our communications, and we do practice how to communicate with judges. In fact there is a protocol for that - using terms such as the Court and Your Honor, and not addressing the judge directly with “you” for the most part. But we don’t learn how to be effective communicators to our co-workers, or to people we manage.
Cathy: And we’ve all had those powerful moments where a communication has really stopped us in our tracks, maybe not even so much because of the information that was conveyed, but because of how it was conveyed. I have 2 stories about this. One is kind of funny and the other is more serious. But first the funny story. I often communicate with people who are outside the U.S. and sometimes there are language issues. One time, a person reached out and said: “Cathy, I have been executed." I said, no, I don’t think so because you’re still talking to me and if you had been executed you would be dead.
But that’s my funny story and not as helpful for the topic but I just had to share it.
Deborah: Ha, now that is funny!
Cathy: And I should also add, listeners, that if you speak more than one language, I am in awe of you. Whenever someone makes an English-language mistake, I’m always quick to point out that their English is way better than my Portuguese or German or whatever other language the person speaks.
So a more serious example of when communications went awry: I find that this often happens when talking to someone about a sensitive topic via email or text. I have had the experience of being totally misunderstood in ways that I couldn’t even have predicted. Honestly, I’m thinking of a specific example, but because there were hurt feelings involved, I really don’t want to give the details. But the short story is that I wrote something meant X and the reader thought I meant Y and it caused all sorts of workplace problems. I should have just picked up the phone and had I done that, I would have avoided this landmine.
Deborah: Yes, because when we communicate back and forth we often work out our misunderstandings along the way. But I can also think of a few times where I have worked very hard to help someone with a project for a client, only to receive a communication back complaining about the work I delivered. This is the sort of communication that makes me want to throw a book across the room.
Cathy: And sometimes these miscommunication mishaps result because we have different priorities and so we’re looking for different messages in the communication.
Deborah: So true. And, when there is criticism to be delivered it has to be delivered. But it is so important to be respectful of someone’s efforts and their feelings. For example, constructive criticism and negative feedback are really the same thing - or pretty much the same thing. But something called “negative feedback” is not going to be as well-received as constructive criticism because one is, well, just negative, and the other is “constructive” meaning that it is delivered with a message of respect.
Cathy: And we know that it is very hard to deliver constructive criticism in a way that isn’t perceived as negative criticism by the person you’re talking to. I’m not sure I have mastered this all-important skill. But I’m still trying.
So today, listeners, we are going to focus on how we communicate with each other at work, and give you some concrete guidelines for engaging in frequent, respectful, and clear communications.
Deborah: If you recall, Listeners, last season we talked about the importance of communication to corporate culture, up and down the chain, and that communications should be open, consistent, respectful, and gender neutral. At the time, I mentioned that I’d like to have more clear protocols within organizations for how we communicate with each other.
Cathy: Yes, I recall that - I think you even suggested we could use Robert’s Rules of procedure.
Deborah: Yes, and while I have abandoned hope of anything that detailed, what I have noticed is that many books on the subject of communications spend a lot of time telling you what the communications channels are and where to communicate, but a lot less time on crafting the messaging in a way that fosters inclusivity.
Cathy: Yes, I have noticed that, too, so today, Listeners in the guidelines we give you we are going to talk about some do’s and don'ts of communications, and how the communications you craft - whether it’s how you talk or write to someone - can either foster a culture that people want to be part of or not.
Deborah: And in my view this is absolutely critical when we are talking about Parity because I have noticed that some of the issues we are going to address seem to come up for me - I think - more often than they do for men. So while these guidelines are helpful for everyone, they are even more important to accentuate when we are talking about parity. Gender differences can creep into many aspects of work including how we communicate.
Cathy: So first listeners we are going to tell you what is encompassed within this definition of communications - where they take place. Then we are going to give you a few general rules for communicating within your organization, with a special emphasis on email communications, which are such a frequent source of communication these days - maybe the most frequent communication channel, and as I mentioned earlier, I have definitely messed this up.
Deborah: Lastly, we will focus on the importance of what is being communicated by what is communicated. I am going to call this the “Meta-communication” That is, when I communicate in a certain style, it is not only my words that matter, but the communication behind the communication.
Cathy: That sounds mysterious!
Deborah: And it’s related to another important point, which is what is the feeling you are aiming for in your communication?
Cathy: Interesting. I’m looking forward to hearing more. So let’s dig in and talk about what we mean by communications. What we’re talking about here is all the communications you have with your co-workers every single day, and also those communications you have with employees who may be below you in terms of a rank or level because we are very focused on the inclusivity element as one of our core elements of the parity prescription.
Deborah: And we’re talking about all kinds of communications including emails or texts or instant messaging, one on one conversations, meetings, joint presentations (either internally or externally), draft work product, newsletters, lunch and learns, really everything under the sun. And, while most of these communications will be work related, sometimes they’re not.
And as I think of my day - just today, I worked on a client pitch with someone junior to me in which I communicated to her praise for a job well-done - because she did do a great job – and that I had only done a very little light editing. I also wrote several email communications thanking people for keeping me apprised of potential business opportunities, and in a meeting with a team that runs events I expressed my confidence in their ability to manage those events.
Each of these interactions is a communication.
Cathy: I love that you praise people for a job well done. That’s a practice I’ve always tried to do myself because I feel good when someone praises me. Interestingly though, I have had debates with leaders about whether praising is a good idea.
Deborah: What? That seems crazy. Why would praising someone for a job well done be bad?
Cathy: Some people take the position that we shouldn’t praise employees for just doing their job. I think these people totally miss the point and I don’t at all adhere to this philosophy. Deborah, just in the way you described your day, it sounds like you appreciate your coworkers and you let them know it.
Deborah: I do! And I do think thanking people is a pillar of communication in the workplace. But this is not about saying thank you blindly. I try to pay attention to what people are doing and acknowledge their efforts. A lot of what we get wrong in our communications, as we will discuss, can be boiled down to not paying attention to what people do - or are trying to do even if they get it wrong.
Cathy: Yes, I agree that authenticity must play a role. These need to be not only inclusive and supportive communications, but they also need to be honest.
So let’s go to some general guidelines for communications. As you’ve said, Deborah, this concept of communicating respectfully is really the most important point. The foundation of an inclusive comment is that you communicate respect. And it seems to me that if you focus on the feeling you are trying to convey, especially in written communications, and think about how your message is going to land - that will go a long way toward delivering the message respectfully.
Deborah: Yes - and this is in line with a communications writer that I really enjoy. She is someone who is immersed in thinking about the foundations of productive communications so her advice is so helpful. Her name is Jenni Field and in her book, Influential Internal Communication, she highlights six points for impactful communication:
Focusing on the audience - really acknowledge who your audience is and remember it's not about you
Setting a clear goal - what is your aim of the communication
Getting the tone right - and here she suggests to lose the jargon
Keeping it simple
Structuring to make your point - be logical in how you lay out your communication
Adapting to the medium - don’t email or text for example, with big news
Cathy: I like the “keep it simple” advice. We have so many things to remember and I appreciate simple.
Deborah: And I really like the getting the tone right bit. Ms. Field doesn’t discuss it this way, but to me getting the tone right is really paying attention to what we’ve been talking about - are you being respectful in your communications? But each one of these elements is important, and when we rush we sometimes skip our good habits. The goal of having productive communications should really slow us down. because we know that misunderstandings within an organization or what are perceived as slights can do a lot of damage.
Cathy: Unthoughtful or rushed communications can also result in microaggressions or biases that are baked into our unconscious thinking that really does require us to be constantly on lookout to make sure we aren’t including racist or misogynistic comments in our communications.
Deborah: I’m so glad you make this point Cathy - that is one of the worst things rushed communications can do.
Cathy: So let’s talk about some specific do’s and don’ts of email communications. And I must say that I have a lot of things on my list here because I have received a lot of poor email communications in my time!
Deborah: I wish that were not the case, but sadly…
Cathy: So here are two things on my list:
- don’t deliver bad/controversial/sensitive news in an email if you can avoid it. Remember my example at the top of the episode - don’t repeat my mistake.
-also, don’t send gripe emails - by that I mean criticism via email. Negative feedback which you should really try to structure as constructive criticism is best delivered in person or if you can’t be in person, then over the phone or via zoom. There is real danger that if you deliver constructive criticism in an email, you will sound harsher than you intended. Being in person holds us directly to account for the feelings we cause in the other person, and also allows for an open dialogue so that you can hear the other person’s perspective. Maybe you don’t have all the facts to back up your constructive criticism.
Deborah: I love both of those points and I will tell you that I have seen emails in which employees resign and where they just say “I resign effective X date.” When I see this sort of disembodied email, it sends the message to me that working for me or within my organization was actually pretty meaningless. After all, if it were not meaningless, you would have felt like you wanted to say something about an aspect you would miss.
Cathy: Good point. I have only resigned twice in my career, but both times I had a one-on-one conversation with my boss.
Deborah: And with respect to the gripe emails, they are just a bad idea, too. The gripe emails that complain about the one mistake I made or the five mistakes I made are really a drain on me. As I said, they make me want to chuck the book or run for the hills. And I don’t think I am even that sensitive. It’s just that I always try to do my best and I tend to think most people do, and so if I still screw up, griping about it is just griping. It’s for your benefit, but not for mine. Or maybe you are griping about one thing I did wrong and ignoring the other 10 tasks I accomplished to your satisfaction. Those are also worthy of being mentioned if you are going to deliver any sort of gripe.
Cathy: So now you are griping, but I completely agree with you.
Deborah: So here is another rule that is important. When you are complaining, really think about whether you are being fair. Cathy, you previewed this - And in some ways, this is a variation on the “no gripe” rule. If someone has not completed a task in the way you wanted it completed, or not answered the question you wanted them to, what was your role in it? For example, if I am not pleased with the draft court brief I receive from someone, I ask myself whether I communicated clearly what I wanted them to write about, and how to lay out the court brief. Did I tell them what to research? If the answer to these questions is no, then it is at least equally my responsibility that I didn’t get what I want. And if I haven’t followed the rule of keeping it simple and setting a clear goal, I may not have even put the project on the right track
Cathy: Deborah, this is really critical. So many projects fail at the outset because of unclear instructions, so in our communications with each other, when that happens, we need to take responsibility for how we can improve. So leaders, make sure you incorporate these tips in how you communicate instructions for a project.
My last point on written communications is to avoid the shame! Have you ever received that email that says you have all behaved so badly that next time you do this we are going to dock your pay?
Deborah: I have! I find that sort of communication is very disrespectful. Because you could easily just say - here is the problem we are having and I know that no one is intentionally trying to harm our organization by engaging in the conduct we’re talking about, but I need you all to try even harder. Thanks and I value your time and your efforts!
Cathy: We can’t talk about communications without discussing meetings and call etiquette. There are some workplace cultures where the goal of these group discussions isn’t about solving problems. Instead, it’s about a dog and pony show. Honestly, it sometimes seems to be about who can talk the loudest or the longest. And that is no way to communicate or run an organization. Have you encountered this?
Deborah: Not often, but you raise a great point that leaders need to make sure that everyone in the room not only has the opportunity to speak, but also has equal air time. If someone is hogging the oxygen, then leaders should take control either during the meeting or behind the scenes.
Cathy: If you’re a leader, you can set the right tone. If you’re not the leader but find yourself in this mess, then find a way to insert yourself and do what you can to avoid being talked over. If you can’t do this on your own, take heart. This is their issue and not yours. But one strategy is to look around the room for others who are getting talked over and form an alliance. I find it easier to speak up for someone else than for myself, so saying something like: “Diane, you had an idea a minute ago that didn’t get on the table. Can you elaborate?”
Deborah: Good point, Cathy, because there is a gender component here. Women are interrupted more frequently than men in meetings. Men, we need you to be on the lookout for opportunities to be good allies in these settings, and as you mentioned Cathy, women can form alliances and be allies to each other.
Cathy: And be on the lookout for ideas being high-jacked. If Diane finally gets her idea out there and then someone takes her idea and runs with it, remind people that it was Diane’s idea.
Deborah: So this really boils down to being respectful and again focusing on how you want someone to feel in your communication - do you want them to feel small, disrespected, and not valued? Well, gripe and shaming emails will accomplish that. But for most people, that is not what they are going for, so we need to pay attention to that.
And the same general principles apply when we are talking about meta-communications.
Cathy: What do you mean by meta communications?
Deborah: Well, I am not talking about the company because the term was used long before them. Meta means in the dictionary self-referential. But that’s not super helpful. But the example in the dictionary is pretty help. Reviewing the movie reviewers is “meta” Analyzing what you have communicated in your communication that isn’t actually in your communication is the same thing.
Are you following?
Cathy: Not really! I need some examples.
Deborah: So let’s talk about a few situations - some bad habits - and what they communicate on a larger level in the context of a communication. This may help.
Cathy, have you ever had someone re-write something you wrote where you thought - ok I don’t really see that your draft is better than mine?
Cathy: I have and that is a maddening experience. I usually call that “word smithing” - when someone changes the words used by the overall message is still the same.
Deborah: That’s the polite term for it. But I’ve also had people nearly wipe out the message. The meta communication in this instance is that I am smarter than you, better than you, and I don’t value the time you put into that thing you wrote.
Cathy: Ah - so I see how this works. So friends, don’t re-write stuff because we all have different styles and should respect those.
What I try to do is edit things to make them better in the style they have been written, leaving the author’s efforts intact. Plus, there is a diversity and inclusion issue here. We hire diverse talent because we want to surround ourselves with people who think and communicate differently than we do. Don’t try to make people behave just like you do.
Deborah: Yes!
Cathy: So let me try one. What is the meta-communication when someone takes up the time that was allotted for me in a presentation?
Deborah: I’ve definitely got this one and this has happened to me. The meta-communication there is that you think what you have to say is more valuable than anything I have to say and that you are more important than I am.
Cathy: Yes! Incidentally, this is the same problem in meetings when one person speaks the overwhelming majority of the time. That person communicates that he thinks he is the most important person in the room.
Deborah: And also, when there is a different person in charge who doesn’t do anything about it, the message is reinforced that the person taking up all the space in the room is the most important person in the room.
Cathy: Whew - Deborah - this is a lot to think about all the time, so how can we expect people to really improve?
Deborah: Well, I think it again goes back to the principle of frequent, clear, and respectful communications, with a focus on what feeling we are trying to invoke, and what feeling we expect we will invoke, or how you are trying to motivate someone in your communication because you motivate people to do good work when they feel valued.
Cathy: And I would say along with that, what we may be communicating on a meta level by the way we carry out our job responsibilities, for example, by taking up all the time during a meeting.
Deborah: Cathy, some listeners may be wondering why we are focused on communications when we haven’t been talking about communications with a focus on how women communicate and men communicate. What are your thoughts about this topic from that perspective?
Cathy: I do think that there are gender differences in how we communicate but there are also cultural and generational differences in how we communicate. It would be a challenge to learn all the nuances but if we get the basics down with a laser focus on respectful communications, then I think we can improve our organizations.
Deborah: I agree - and really for me - so many of the things we have talked about that have alienated me in my work life are things that men have done - more frequently than women - like rewriting my work, taking up extra time, firing off missives, etc. So I view all of the tips we introduced today as critical to the parity of women in the workplace - critical to “intentionally including.”
Cathy: Yes! These are action items you can work on, allies!
Deborah: So listeners, we’d like to talk about Parity in Play, where we take something from the news or real life and talk about how we apply the parity prescription to move forward on questions of parity. And we will stick with allies for today’s discussion.
Cathy: And with Roe v Wade in the news and the weight of that decision on everyone’s mind, we’re going to dive into one element that seems critical in the aftermath.
Deborah: Yes, listeners, we didn’t think we could record this and let it go unmentioned. What we know right now is that the weight for women in particular is heavy, especially because the uncertainties are enormous. We don’t know what the law is going to be across the country, we don't know whether women will be treated fairly as state legislatures around the country gear up to decide these issues.
Cathy: And many of us have safety concerns. More American women overall die of childbirth as compared to other developed nations and Black women are more than three times as likely to die from pregnancy-related complications as white women. If more Black women are forced to carry pregnancies to term, there will be a disproportionate increase in deaths of Black women in childbirth. And this is confirmed by a study published by Duke University Press. So these are scary times for women, especially Black women.
Deborah: These safety concerns are so weighty. And these are even before we get to the point of considering what the impact to parity may be. So allies, check in on us, see how we are doing, ask us what’s on our mind, and take action where you can. Just yesterday I had an ally check in on me and also ask me what he could do - so I told him and I told him where and how to speak up.
This is a moment where it would be really helpful if you as allies wouldn’t leave us alone.
Cathy: My son - he’s 22 - was the person in my life who has been the most supportive. And he basically said, Mom, I love you. I know there’s a lot of uncertainty and fear right now and I’m here to support you however I can. And of course, I’m too old to get pregnant, but I have strong empathy for those women who can and have real fear for their safety and dignity.
Deborah: I love how the communications topic has come full circle - the way your son communicated with you was just perfect.
Listeners, please know that we are here to help you. Tune in while you are doing whatever you do most frequently.
Cathy: Thank you for supporting Parity Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, then please:
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We hope to connect with you again soon so that we can make progress with the Parity Prescription!
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