Transcript of How to Break the Bias with Guests Lilian Agyemang-Yeboah and Ashia Johnson
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Cathy: Welcome to Season 2 of Parity, a podcast for everyone ready for a workplace of true gender parity with equal numbers of women and men at all levels of organizations including the coveted top positions. Women have had the right to vote for 100 years, but experts believe that we will not achieve workplace parity for another 135 years! 135 years is a long time, friends, to wait for equality. The goal of this podcast is to accelerate this change by being a coach, mentor, and trusted friend for all of you who are ready now.
I’m Cathy Nestrick. Waiting for 135 years until we achieve workplace parity is not ok with me, and that is why I was motivated to start this podcast with my good friend Deborah.
Deborah: Hi everyone, I am your co-host Deborah Pollack-Milgate. Friends, we had a short break as we geared up for Season 2 and I am so pleased to be back! I’m so excited to celebrate International Women’s Day.
Cathy: Woohoo! Season 2!!
Deborah: That’s right, Season 2! And I’m so excited to celebrate International Women’s Day and looking forward to a year of looking at the issues we explored in Season 1 in greater depth, and focusing on where we think the stumbling blocks are on the road to parity.
Cathy: I’m so glad to be back listeners! The time off the air was important and you all were top of mind. We spent the time considering where to take this show so that we can maximize our impact for you. I am looking forward to this season, and especially the opportunity to speak with some guests I know our listeners will absolutely want to hear from.
Deborah: Yes, and so, speaking of guests, today, we are joined by two women who are all about impact and they are going to help us celebrate International Women’s Day with you. They will also help us unpack this year’s International Women’s Day theme, and Cathy and I are very excited about the theme, Break the Bias. Lilian Agyemang-Yeboah is an applications engineer and a thought leader encouraging more women - particularly women of color - to pursue STEM careers. We are also joined by Ashia Johnson and she works for Amazon’s CSR and Sustainability team, and is the co-host of her own podcast called The Core Intentions Podcast, and is another thought leader highlighting the need for greater diversity and inclusion across the board. Welcome Lilian and Ashia.
Ashia: Thank you so much Deborah and Cathy, I appreciate the opportunity to be here.
Lilian: Thank you as well.
Cathy: I was a little worried that we had lost you Lilian. And listeners, it’s not being able to hear her - we didn’t literally lose Lilian. She’s right here with us.Ashia and Lilian, we are so grateful that you are both spending time with us today as we celebrate International Women’s Day and focus on this year’s theme of Break the Bias - which is such an important topic as Deborah mentioned.. Before we jump in, though, can you share a little more about your background for our listeners? Ashia, can you start?
Ashia: Sure, thanks Cathy, I am so excited to be here today. I’m so excited to pull back the layers today and to reveal the thick roots of these longstanding issues of bias. So for everyone listening, my name is Ashia Johnson. My pronouns are she, her, and hers. I’m joining today from my third home in Brooklyn, NY but my journey started in Indianapolis, Indiana where I was born. And then after, I was raised in multiple states in the midwest - I moved seven times by the time I graduated from high school - and since have lived in every single U.S. time zone which has become one of my fun facts. I mention that for a couple of reasons related to the subject of our conversation today. One, being that my mother, a Black woman who grew up during the 1960s Civil Right Movement and one of the biggest influences in my life - she really served as an incredible example of resilience as a working woman in a heavy, male-dominated industry, the automotive industry. And my mother was and is committed to those she led and those she loved. And secondly, these experiences of starting anew and building relationships have truly molded me into the person I am today. As it relates to the subject of this discussion today, building relationships and connecting with people can really help to break the bias and move us forward in a progressive way. So the person you’re seeing today has many titles and identities including a product manager in retail technology, a social impact and equity advocate, an investor in people and places, an outdoor and hiking enthusiast, and a home and space curator. Thank you so much again for the opportunity to connect today.
Cathy: Oh Ashia, that was awesome. Loved hearing about your background, especially enjoyed hearing about your mother and how she influenced the woman that you have become, which is an awesome, awesome person. So Lilian, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Lilian: Yes, definitely. My name is Lilian Agyemang-Yeboah and I was born and raised in Ghana which is in West Africa, so I’m thousands of miles away from home. I relocated to the United States of America for college and I graduated with a degree in plastics engineering. I’m currently working as an applications engineer at a life science company and I have had a remarkable, dynamic journey as an international student in America and have dealt with a lot of changes and experienced so many things that I wasn’t ready for - different culture shock moments and I think this is what has birthed my passion and I want to see more, for advocating for women in STEM. I want to see more Black women in STEM. I’m in an industry where there isn’t much representation for women in general, it’s birthed a passion in me to want to create more spaces to see people who look like me just so we can help to inspire the young generation of girls coming up in STEM. And my family in Ghana also serves as my foundation because I was one of the very few people who did get the opportunity to further my education outside of my home country. I see that as privilege to be able to get these experiences to be able to learn from these dynamic and diverse spaces but I think that experience has also birthed within me a passion to want to create equality wherever I find myself. So I hope to be able to bring so many gems to this conversation and I’m really happy to be with you ladies.
Cathy: I know you will bring many gems to this conversation. Sorry Deborah, go ahead!
Deborah: No, you took the words right out of my mouth. Lilian, I was actually going to say I’m so glad to have you here for everything you can add to this conversation. That really gives us depth.
Lilian: Thank you!
Deborah: So, it was so fortuitous that the International Women's Day’s theme is Break the Bias. Cathy, as we wrapped up Season 1, you and I both remarked that unconscious bias - as widespread with everyone talking about it - still needs more attention. So maybe we were not the only ones thinking the same thing in 2021.
Cathy: Absolutely, and listeners, we are convinced that the #1 reason women are not advancing in the workplace at the level we should be is unconscious bias.
Deborah: Yes, we all have some unconscious bias resulting from how and where we were raised, books and tv that we viewed growing up, and other experiences that affected us, whether we knew it or not. In fact, the more I read about unconscious bias and gender constructs, the more I am learning how profoundly we are molded societally to be women. So the big question is how do we disrupt this bias, or in the words of International Women’s Day, how do we Break the Bias? And let’s start first of all by asking the very fundamental question - which I think it’s indisputable but let’s still ask the question - of whether gender bias exists.
Cathy: So Lilian and Ashia, we tackled unconscious bias during Season 1 but we want to go deeper with you today. Before talking about Breaking the Bias, let’s make sure we’re all level set that gender bias exists - we believe gender bias is out there in spades. One way that I have personally experienced bias is that I have had situations where I was not “seen and heard” to the same extent as men are. Sometimes this played out with other people interrupting me, making it difficult for me to get my thoughts out. It has also played out so that I literally feel invisible. I may be in a meeting with several people but I’m having a hard time making eye contact with people or inserting myself into the conversation, especially in those meetings when I’m the only woman. What about you 3? Have you had the experience of being on the receiving end of gender bias? Is there a story you can share that would help listeners better understand your experience? Deborah, why don’t we kick this off with you?
Deborah: Yes, Cathy, so I have unfortunately encountered gender bias, as you said, in spades. And I will say the higher the stakes from a professional perspective, the worse the behavior I’ve encountered. I have been called, I will confess, a lot of different names - and I don’t think it’s just me. And not by my colleagues but by my opponent in a litigation matter. I’ve been called everything from snippy to tiger, to in one case in a single letter, so I love this, bellicose, belligerent, and bombastic. Which I think was probably a metaphor for something else that starts with a “B” but he chose bellicose, belligerent, and bombastic.
Cathy: If that was me, Deborah, I would frame that letter and hang it in my office!
[laughter]
Deborah: You’re right, and for me, in some ways it comes down to no man really likes to be beaten by a girl. I think it’s sort of engrained. So that’s my story.
Cathy: Good point, so Lilian what about you? Have you experienced bias?
Liian: I think I always do, honestly. I can’t point to just one experience of me experiencing bias but I would say that my very first experience was when I started my co-op at an engineering firm and I was paired with another coop who was graduating from a university in New York. We were tasked with a project to work on and we were both engineering students so I believed we were equally on the same level. And this fellow looks at me and he’s like “you handle the powerpoint presentation and I’ll do the actual work.” And I was taken aback for a second because I was like do I have a sign saying I want to do the easier job? No, and that was the very first time that I realized that something like this [bias] does exist. And even graduating from college and going into the industry, I have had so many experiences and one that I’m not very fond of is I had an experience in a lab and we were all working. It was a group of guys and I was the only girl as usual. We were lifting heavy products. And they looked at me and said “why don’t you handle the zip ties,” and I felt very small in that moment because I wasn’t sure whether I was being given that task because I was the only female or because I was giving them a sign that I wasn’t strong enough - maybe I hadn’t been lifting enough weights in the gym to be able to lift these heavy boxes. But this is one of experiences I have had and I would definitely say that gender bias does exist.
Cathy: I agree Lilian and I really like your analogy - it’s not just an analogy. But your comment that they didn’t expect you to be able to do the heavy lifting and that was kind of the situation in both of your examples. One was literally the physical act of heavy lifting and the other was, “well, I’ll do the hard work or the heavy lifting and you run the PowerPoint.
Lilian: Yes.
Cathy: So some powerful stuff there. So Ashia, what about you? What’s your experience with bias and does it exist?
Ashia: Yes, 100%. I’ll start off with 100%, gender bias does exist. And I’m just sitting here shaking my head for the listeners because all of these stories that have been shared already are so relatable, but still very emotional that we have to deal with these microaggressions - some not so micro - every single day in these different spaces. One story that I can speak to in my career, so I started my career in the oil and gas industry so a very male-dominated space, and I had a male manager and a mostly male team. And one of my male team-mates told me over a lunch one day that he had basically heard from our manager that he enjoys meeting with me because I am a good-looking woman. And that’s why he wanted to have 1:1 meetings with me - that was something he looked forward to. And so when I think about gender bias, and I think about the opportunities I may not have gotten in that space because of the way that I look and being a woman generally, really affected me. Obviously, I’m pushing to advance and for opportunities, and I was reporting into someone who was not going to fight for me to get those opportunities because he only enjoyed meeting with me for personal reasons. So that is borderline sexism right there and not just bias. So there’s bias and then there’s sexism and it really affected me. But I also want to make sure that based on our conversation and the topic of International Women’s Day, I want to present some facts that help us talk through what it’s like as a woman in the workforce generally speaking and based on data. So I read in the United Nations report that women make up about 70% of service oriented work in developing countries, conduct 3x as much care work as men, and make up the majority of single parent homes. So I believe in this topic of gender bias. We have to talk about these issues that are rooted in inequities based on the way our systems have been shaped, right? Tthe way we have socially been shaped to think and believe women should be. So I want to keep that top of mind as we have that conversation too.
Cathy: You know, you commented that women do 3x as much care work as men, and that’s a data point that Deborah and I have shared frequently, particularly when we look at mothers and the extra bias that they face. So, male allies, I hope you’re tuning in and listening because we need your help not only at work but also at home.
Deborah: Ashia, the story you shared makes me wonder whether the finding the woman attractive is also just another way to discount us for our work life and focusing back on our gender and our role as a sex object, I guess, for lack of a better word. So that feels like to me…
Ashia: Absolutely!
Deborah: …another exercise of power of diminishing our workplace value independent of sex.
Ashia: Absolutely.
Lilian: Can I just pitch in? Do you think this plays a role in what goes in the mindset of women when it comes to dressing up for work? Not to steer the conversation in a different direction, but I think for me, with the example that Ashia just gave, I over-criticize myself when I’m getting dressed for work just so I don’t have to experience things like this.
Cathy: I’ll jump in and say I absolutely think that women are under enormous pressure in how we look at work and that’s why we see the make-up and the hair and the nails, etc. And you think about how much money women spend on a monthly basis to look the way we think we’re supposed to look in the workplace - not necessarily how we want to present ourselves - but how we think we’re supposed to be so that we are respected and treated equally, or at least try to be treated equally. That’s my thought, Ashia and Deborah, what do you think?
Deborah: I think this raises another issue of the double bind, right? You need to show up with make-up at work, and yet you can’t show up with too much make-up at work or you send different messages. This is just another example in my mind of how there is never a perfect answer for women in the workplace when it comes to our presentation.
Ashia: Absolutely, I think that point is what I was going to speak to. I think, depending on the industry and the environment, there are expectations about how women are supposed to show up and I think when we talk about this pandemic and working in a virtual environment, the expectations of you how show up on camera too, as definitely – obviously there is bias rooted in that and it’s an ongoing challenge that women are faced with regardless of the industry that you’re in and regardless of your role.
Deborah, So I think we could stay on this for a little while but let’s talk about occasions when bias is subtle. Sometimes I find it difficult to recognize that the issue at play IS bias because it can be subtle, but bias is damaging and insidious whether it is intentional or unconscious, subtle or overt. Bias in all forms takes a toll over time. As a white woman, I only know second hand obviously how a Black woman or woman of color experiences bias. Lilian and Ashia, I think it would be helpful for our listeners to hear from you on this topic. When you experience bias, how do you disentangle whether the bias is a result of your gender, race, or both, or do you even try?
Lilian: I would say that I don’t even try anymore because it just sends me down a rabbit hole trying to figure out what is the reason why I’m experiencing this. And so sitting here right now, I honestly do not have an answer. I’m curious to know what Ashia’s response is because I have had multiple experiences where I couldn’t tell if bias was because of my gender or my race or both, so I’m torn, honestly.
Ashia: Yes, I think we both could share examples of where we felt like we couldn’t necessarily disentangle what it is that this bias is rooted in. I agree with you, Lilian, I don’t even try to disentangle racism and sexism. I feel like it is an intersectional experience, so for me, what I try to do, is I try to think through what it is that I can control - what’s in my sphere of influence - because I’m not going to necessarily be able to change someone’s perspective regardless of what the bias is rooted in. I can only show up in the ways that I can show up and really try to control those things that I can control.
Cathy: I really like that Ashia, that you focus on what you can control which is a great pivot as well. I think we’ve established that we four believe that bias exists - it happens and we’ve experienced it and we’ve seen other people experience it - and so now the big question is how do we break that bias?
For me, one tip is to understand and manage your own bias. You can take an online test with Harvard University - they have several different tests to assess your biases based on gender, race, age, and more. I’ve done this and I do have bias - which as we’ve discussed is totally expected. At a recent conference, a speaker said: If you have a brain, you have unconscious bias. The phrase really stuck with me - I think that’s a great way to think about unconscious bias. The Harvard test doesn’t tell you what to do about your bias, but understanding your own biases gives you more control over how you communicate and react to situations in real life. If you know you have a bias against women in the workplace, for example, then you should stop and check yourself to ensure that you don’t act upon your bias when making hiring and promotion decisions. What are your tips for disrupting bias? Lilian, can we kick this off with you?
Lilian: Yes, I would definitely say that diversifying our teams would be a good start. First of all, I love what you said about identifying your personal bias because I don’t want to say that it’s a bad thing. We all experience [unconscious] bias so it is innate. I’m not penalizing you for your bias, I’m just drawing it to your attention just so you are aware of it. And then from a hiring standpoint, if you are trying to hire someone for a team, creating that diverse space on the hiring team and then the hiring pool of the employees you’re trying to hire would kind of blend or create a space where we can have diverse ideas and diverse people and diverse feedback to be able to then try to beat this unconscious bias that exists.
Cathy: Yes, I like that. Create diverse teams by using a diverse panel to do your hiring.
Lilian: Diverse panel, yes.
Cathy: Great ideas. Okay, Deborah, how are you going to break the bias?
Deborah: Well, I have a podcast, Cathy.
[laughter]
Lilian: That’s a great answer!
Deborah: I want to go back to two things. First of all, to education. Cathy, you mentioned the Harvard quiz. And that’s so important, and in my mind, it is the bare minimum. People need to educate themselves on this. What I get concerned about is a lot of people talking about bias and pontificating about bias without doing their homework and really understanding it and looking at the factors behind it. And this is women too. THis is all of us. We need to do our homework and understand what this looks like. The second thing I want to raise - which we have talked about over and over again Cathy - is that we have to bring men into these conversations. If we only talk about women and how they navigate bias and we don’t talk about men and make sure they’re part of this conversation, women, we won’t make progress alone. We’ll spin our wheels where parity is concerned. Cathy, you usually say this, but we need the men to lean in to really be able to break the bias.
Cathy: Lean in male allies - I just had to say it again.
Deborah: Yep, because Cathy’s tipping over!
Cathy: That’s right.
Deborah: She needs you to meet her halfway.
[laughter]
Cathy: Great tips, Deborah.
Ashia: Yes, great tips all around. There are so many great tips that dovetail off the tips that I have too. I want to also talk about what Lilian mentioned about recruiting diverse teams. The topic or the subject that I’ve been talking through at my company is recruiting is important to improve diverse but inclusion and equity are really where my passion stems. And really understanding whether once you get folks in a room, are you really giving them an opportunity to speak? Are you creating a safe environment for people to have these conversations? I think it’s taking the next step and even a step further. And it connects to Deborah’s point about really thinking about your own bias from an academic perspective and also practically speaking in the spaces where we show up every single day. How can you create those spaces for diverse teams in the workplace. So that's a point I wanted to make.
And then my couple of tips for the conversation. Two things. The first is leading with empathy. I think it’s super important to be emotionally and mentally open to change and it’s definitely not easy and I think it’s important to really try to live in and step into someone else’s shoes. You’re not going to be able to understand their full experience, but be open to try to understand someone else’s experience and be flexible. And then actively listen before you speak. I think the folks who have leaned into the idea of breaking bias nad being a true ally is actively listening before you speak so you can truly understand and really connect with someone to be able to change the way you think about a certain area or topic.
Deborah: Ashia, I really like what you said before about building relationships. I think this fits into this notion about breaking the bias. And the more relationships you have - and you and Lilian have both talked about diversity and inclusion and having diverse teams -you build in these relationships, and as you talked about earlier, this is really one of the first steps.
I mentioned the thought of really making sure that we have male allies earlier about how important it is to have them involved in the process and having them assist in the process of breaking the bias. What are your tips for drawing men into this conversation and how can we help them be part of the solution?
Ashia: So when it comes to male allies, I’ve been super fortunate to be able to connect with a few male allies, but one in my role in my tenure at Amazon. His name is Frank Boosman and we actually met by exchanging bananas. I know that sounds weird but….
Cathy: That does sound weird….
Lilian: Yes!
Deborah: Very strange…
[laughter]
Ashia: But at Amazon, when we were on campus, they have banana stands. It’s a known thing and part of our culture and they give out bananas all day and I don’t know the history, but that’s how we met. We were at a conference and we hadn’t had breakfast, but I brought a banana from outside and I gave him a banana. We then started talking and engaging, and that's how we met. And so that was a couple of years ago, and since then Frank has been a true male ally, mentor, and sponsor in so many ways. So he helped me write my promotion document, he has said my name in rooms I’m not present in, and he’s become really a family member for me. I’m fortunate to have him as a male ally, and that’s not a title that he waves around on LinkedIn or a title that he’ll even say himself because for him he knows its an action word. And he lives in that every single day. And he actually acts on that and shows up for me in ways that have really moved me in places at Amazon and beyond.
Cathy: What a great story.
Lilian: I want to shed some more light on what you said about sponsor. That's a word I love so much.
[laughter]
Ashia: Yes, that’s the equity piece.
Lilian: Right! So I looked this up and it said a mentor is someone who can provide you with guidance and career advice. A sponsor is someone in the workplace who will advocate for you. The key word is advocate for you. For me, as a woman of color, I don’t see many people who look like me in very high positions. To even gather up the courage to be able to speak to someone who doesn't look like me to have a certain conversation that would then get my name spoken in certain rooms. It takes a look. To be able to identify someone - a White male - in your industry who can take your name in rooms that I would never even dream of being in, is a dream come true. And for me and a lot of my co-workers, friends and peers who look like me, we’ve had the conversation on so many levels, so yes, we can have these conversations among ourselves, but then who is taking these conversations and doing something or has the power to do something about it.
I think this is the question that Deborah asked about how to break the bias. Is when a male ally identifies himself in this position, then try to pull us up with you. When you identify a woman who is capable of reaching for higher levels, then pull them up, mentor them, sponsor them, and be their advocate. There are so many opportunities available to us. I hope that a lot of the male allies who are listening will take some of these tips and actually implement them.
Cathy: Both of you have really great ideas. I agree that we need more male allies to play the role of sponsor in the workplace. In terms of my advice,, I want to focus on the conversations that sometimes need to take place about gender bias. Too often, when I raise the issue of bias with men - even men who I consider to be my male allies did not embrace the conversation - they seem flummoxed about what I’m saying. And their first reaction is almost always defensive - they say things like: I don’t think the situation you described has anything to do with you being a woman or I’m sure that “George” didn’t mean anything by it when he made that comment. In my experience, male allies way too often assume that I’m wrong because they really don’t want to get into it. And they view these conversations as HR’s problems. So this is my tip. I think there needs to be a lot of planning around how the conversation will go down between you and your male ally. And unfortunately, the planning will fall on us - the women - but we need to map out what happened and how it’s happened before. I also think we need to be clear that we’re not trying to get anyone in trouble - unless there was outright discrimination and in that case, you should talk to HR and someone should get in trouble - but with unconscious bias, we’re just trying to change behavior so that the next time, there isn’t bias in the communications or decision-making. At the end of the day, we want the opportunity that the bias thwarted so, the objective is to point out the bias so that we can snuff it out before it happens again. So my tips are for the women: be clear and have a plan, and for the ally: don’t be defensive but instead listen, ask questions, and consider the possibility that the woman sitting in front of you is right.
Ashia: I love those tips. It’s a health reminder for sure.
Deborah: And especially, and I think you said this took Ashia, the advice to slow down and listen. Just because you didn’t see it or you don’t experience it, doesn’t mean that bias doesn’t exist.
Asiah: Yes!
Cathy: And we all have had that problem that people think bias doesn’t exist. On social media, I sometimes receive remarks from people suggesting that there is no gender or racial bias. There’s someone who keeps commenting on the Parity Podcast posts and it’s something about how women are born not wanting to be scientists, and Parity Podcast, why are you making women be scientists. So we’re going to deal with these sorts of folks who think that bias doesn’t exist. And occasionally, someone in my personal life will make a similar comment. It would be easy to just get angry and yell or walk away, but I really want to convert this person - we need as many allies as possible. I’m not sure everyone is convertible… How should we handle these encounters?
Ashia: I can jump in here. I’m laughing because I think at a certain point it is comical. And I think that for me, to your point Cathy, about having as many allies as possible. I agree with that, but on the other side I would say that we need as many active allies as possible. For me, I’m not willing to emotionally commit to try to convert everyone who doesn’t believe that bias exists and who are not willing to do the work. You can’t control what people do or say, but you can control your response. And the response can be powerful in getting people to think about how they think. It doesn’t take emotional energy to do all these things, so you can’t respond to everything everyone says to you, but I think it can be impactful to consider a response that causes people to reflect.
Cathy: Lilian, what do you think?
Lilian: I’m really struggling with this one because…
Cathy: Me too - that’s why I asked the question. Because I really want to get mad, but do I really want to use all this emotional energy on this guy?
Lilian: Exactly!
Deborah: He’s already cost you the energy.
Cathy: True, I’m still talking about it, right?
Deborah: Yes, right now!
Lilian: I have someone who constantly comments on my LinkedIn posts about diversity in engineering and STEM.
Cathy: I wonder if it’s the same guy!
Lilian: It could be. The comments sound similar. But there was one time he commented on my post. It was a very lengthy comment. I could feel myself getting to a place where I didn’t want to get to and so I blocked him.
Cathy: I didn’t know you could do that on LinkedIn. You can block someone?
Lilian: Yes!
Cathy: Well, listeners, you heard it here today!
[laughter]
Lilian: So I blocked him and I think I reported him or something because it was constant. It wasn’t one time. Because it was constant, I thought, okay, you’re being a troll. I don’t like to comment or reply to his comments because it takes away from the post. And that’s where I’m struggling. Am I being a coward by not responding and not educating him? Am I being too quick with the block? I try to stay the middle. For me, that’s how I handle trolls. I mute them and block them if it’s too obnoxious.
Cathy: I really like what both of you said. And I think where both of you are landing is - protect yourself.
Ashia: Absolutely!
Lilian: Yes!
Cathy: And that’s the number 1 priority here is to protect yourself. I know I said let’s try to convert this person but what’s the probability that I can really convert this person?
Deborah: I think there’s a short way of saying this - don’t feed the trolls.
[laughter]
Deborah: There's just no point in feeding the trolls. Now sometimes, I don’t think you can tell if someone is a troll. I had someone who was trying to bully me. I had someone who said I committed malpractice, and then he said I was too good of an advocate, and then he called me a young lady.
[laughter]
Cathy: Okay, young lady!
Deborah: Right, I don’t know if he’s a troll or not, or whether he’s just stupid. I think that some men are probably concerned about what diversity, equity, and inclusion means for them. And they sometimes have a misperception that this is about taking them out and putting someone else in. And so the people we can reach, I think it’s important to emphasize that it’s not about throwing anyone out but it’s about inclusion. And inclusion is not about throwing anyone out but including everyone. Those are the people I want to focus on - the people we can reach so long as we can manage the anxieties.
Cathy: Deborah, I have not had the experiences that you described - certainly, I have had my fair share of unconscious bias. And now that I have studied it, looked at the data, and talked to people like you 3, I see it more clearly in my own life and in the lives of others. My closest encounter with outright bias was when a judge called me a “girl” in front of others and he did it in a way so that we all knew he was insulting me. Calling someone a girl shouldn’t ever be an insult, but on this day with this judge, it was. And just like you Deborah, I didn’t do anything about it. He was a judge with power and I didn’t want to engage with that. I was unwilling to speak truth to power in that moment.
If it happened again, I would engage. Hopefully not in the heat of the moment, but we can’t turn the other cheek every time. If we always take the high road and never engage, then nothing will ever change. So, my tip is: let the heat of the moment pass, develop a plan, talk it through with friends and allies - and I’m always here to be a friend and ally to anyone who is listening - and then sit down with the right person and talk it through. Explain how the tactics are harming you and your relationship with him. And, if that doesn’t work, I would consider escalating. That may mean getting your boss or his boss involved in the conversation, or inviting HR to the next discussion. Before escalating, I would again develop a plan and talk it through with my trusted circle of friends, mentor and sponsor.
Lilian: I wanted to comment on something you said. I see this as a trend. The example you gave of a judge calling you a girl which he intended to be very condescending. And for me, I also saw this early in my career. I experienced things like this. At the beginning stage of your career, you don’t have the courage to speak up so is this just going to be a trend for younger girls coming up - okay, you have to go through it the first time and then you can speak up? What can we do to deal with this?
Cathy: When you describe it that way, Lilian, it sounds like a bully mentality. Bullies pick on people who are vulnerable. A young person - male, female, anyone - just starting out is very vulnerable. She may have student loan debt. This job may be all important for whatever reason. And you’re really vulnerable in that moment, and I think that the trend will continue for those people with a bullying mentality.
Lilian: Okay
Cathy: I don’t like that answer! But I think that so long as our society has bullies and we continue to hire them and promote them, it will continue to be a problem in the workplace.
Deborah: I think I would speak out more than I did. I would tell my younger self to speak up more often. I used to have a lot more bullying in my life when I started out in my career. Bullying is a tactic that lawyers use against each other and as a young woman, it was overwhelming at times. I would tell my younger self to speak up more. On the other hand, there is a fine line because it is clear in that situation that the bully knows he’s being a bully and he’s the troll and the effect of that on my career was: okay this is something i have to put up with and I just doubled down because I knew my obligation to my client was to be the best lawyer I could and I couldn’t let the bully affect my performance. If anything it made me a stronger lawyer. I was absolutely cognizant that I had to double down to make sure that I wasn’t intimidated. I would still tell younger women that where you see the opportunity, speak up. That helps us all and it helps you.
Lilian: I love that.
Cathy: Yes, me too but I want to throw some caution in here. You need to consider the power dynamic. Consider your own power and the power of the bully. And frankly, if the bully has a lot of power within your organization, then you probably need to look for another organization because that’s not where you want to be and you’re not going to be successful there with this bully standing in your way. Just be mindful of the power situation if HR or other people get involved and someone has to make a decision as to whether the bully will be punished or something is going to happen to correct the situation.
Thank you so much Ashia and Lilian for sharing your stories and your advice with our listeners. You’ve given us some practical advice which is always something we’re trying to do. Listeners, we will be creating a written document that includes today’s takeaways so that you can have it as a reminder of today’s tips or share it with others.
Deborah: Ashia and Lilian, thank you so much for today’s episode. Listeners, if you would like to learn more about Ashia and Lily, you can find their details in the show notes. We will include links to their social media and also to their podcasts.
Ashia: Thank you so much Cathy and Deborah for this conversation today.
Lilian: Thank you so much for this opportunity. I’ve learned a whole lot about this topic and about myself actually due to my past experiences. I hope your listeners learned something too.
Cathy: I know they did! During our next Episode, Deborah and I are taking on the gender wage gap. The gender wage gap is the economic impact of everything we've been talking about - when women aren’t promoted, we earn less. When there is unconscious bias directed against us, we are seen as less valuable and earn less. We will talk about the data and offer solutions in the next episode. Please know that we are here to help you. Tune in while you are thinking about how to celebrate International Women’s Day which is March 8 and Women’s History Month which in the US is the entire month of March. We have time-stamped show notes. You can find links to resources that we mentioned in today’s episodes, as well as links to find us on social media and our webpage.
Deborah: Thank you for supporting the Parity Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, then please:
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We hope to connect with you again soon so that we can make progress with the Parity Prescription!
